Lookspring » In which I don’t try to write like a man

In which I don’t try to write like a man

I have a friend, whose name is Mark Sorrell, who yesterday posted this column. It’s probably worth going and reading that first, or none of the rest of this will make sense.

That column triggered a bunch of discussion, part of which was a reddit thread, and part of that thread was this comment from a reader called LadyKeen.

It shouldn’t have to come to this. It isn’t about just accepting the fact that you will be harassed, but being a legitimate prescence in the gaming world. Women in the gaming industry aren’t just being shat on because they are women. It is because they are used/using themselves as sex symbols or they come out with outrageous claims/ideas about something (ala Hamburger Helper). Successful women in the gaming industry do their job without being a nut about it and therefore do not get the flack.

The whole comment thread is worth reading, partly for Mark’s smart answers, and partly for the bit when someone says that Jade Raymond is letting herself be used as a sex symbol in the photo at the top of this post. The one where she’s wearing jeans and a cardigan and smiling, the filthy, gaping whore.

Here’s what makes me sad.

My position used to be exactly the opinion quoted above. I don’t get the flack that a lot of other women-on-the-internet, and especially women-on-the-games-internet get. And that, I used to think, was because I was clever and smart. I didn’t cam-whore. I didn’t flirt. I didn’t do anything to make myself a target. And therefore I was better than the stupid women who courted the hate-mail and the rape threats and the knee-jerk dismissals.

Here are some other things that I included in my ‘not making myself a target’ strategy:

- not wearing skirts
- not wearing heels
- not coming to the defence of other women on the receiving end of abuse and threats and dismissals
- not, under any circumstances, ever ever ever ever indicating that there might be any sexual activity in my thoughts or my life or my body
- not talking about ‘being a woman’ or anything dumb and feminist like that
- judging the success of my approach on the number of people who didn’t realise from my writing that I was female.

These things pervade everything about how I comport myself online, and indeed in the industry. I posted a picture of my skirt on Twitter the other day, because the pattern reminded me of a Pokemon. I was anxious about posting it, in case it seemed like something that would lay me open to accusations of being a camwhore or an attention-seeking flirt. In the end, I decided I would, but was careful to take a picture where you could only see the pattern, and not – god forbid – some of my leg or something like that.

In a word where Jade Raymond gets accused of being a sex-token for standing in front of her team and smiling, these are sensible precautions to take.

So when Mark talks about women who self-censor, he is talking about me. It took me a long time to recognise that, because since expressing what I think is such a central element of who I am that facing up to that fact is miserable.

And when LadyKeen makes her point, I sympathise and identify. But I also despair, a bit. Everyone – absolutely everyone – has to decide how to handle themselves online, how to construct themselves professionally. Everyone has to decide where to draw the barriers between their private and public life. We all self-edit, and we all *should* self-edit. It’s a pleasure and a responsibility, both, to ensure that we are who we want to be and we have a generally non-shitty impact on the people around us.

But it has taken me a horribly long time to understand what an insidious impact the fear of attracting the degree of negative attention has on the way I present myself. It’s taken me a while to recognise that a big part of why I don’t post things like this is because I’m *scared*. Actually scared. Actually worried that I’ll terminally undermine my credibility. And that’s because the degree of abuse you can attract is of a different order from the generality of internet rough-and-tumble [interesting, newly-self-aware side note. I would normally have deleted 'rough-and-tumble' after writing it, because it could just about be interpreted as something titillating. Today, I'm leaving it in there]. General internet rough-and-tumble doesn’t phase me. I’m secretly delighted that the 4th Google result for my name is ‘Margaret Robertson is full of shit’. It amuses me enough that I’ve bought www.margaretrobertsonisfullofshit.com, even if I haven’t quite figured out what to do with it yet. I think, on the whole, I can make my peace with being called a cunt for what I write, but I find it more daunting to be called a cunt for just having one.

That’s a thing I wouldn’t have written out-loud before today.

So I’m not saying that a degree of self-editing is bad. And I’m not saying that women (or men) shouldn’t be try to be good at their jobs, or act professionally if they want to be treated professionally. I think women being great at what they do is the single best advert for that fact that women are great at what they do.

But in the end, I was right to think I was clever and smart. I have avoided making myself a target of sexist assholes by playing by their rules. I’ve done a *blinding* job of that so far.

I think I’m going to stop doing that now.

92 Comments so far
Leave a comment

As usual Margaret, you are bang on. thanks for your searing honesty.

Thoughtful and timely post, thanks Margaret!

“not coming to the defence of other women on the receiving end of abuse and threats and dismissals”

This, to me, is the absolutely saddest and most heartbreaking affect of prevalent sexism. It applies to both men and women, but the stigma is especially bad for women. It’s such a potent mix of fear and guilt. Bearing harassment is bad enough when you’re the target, but knowing you could help someone not be alone in that abuse – and then not helping them out of fear – is so much worse.

Thanks for posting this.

Congratulations – on both the self-awareness and the courage.

It’s such a waste of talent that women have to operate with either the continual process of self-censorship that you mention, or the worry of being attacked by idiots. I hadn’t noticed it being any limit on the quality of your work, but without that distraction I look forward to you being even better.

In some ways an awareness of identity is a strength and can improve one’s ideas and the expression of them. Straight white men (I’m one) usually forget to acknowledge those parts of our identity and focus only on self-chosen dimensions, such as “economist” or “game designer”. I suspect by understanding all aspects of our identity, as perceived by ourselves and by others, we all become stronger communicators and better thinkers. It must be frustrating is to be aware of dimensions in your identity and then feel that you have to veil them.

This article reveals a valuable new perspective to me at least. I look forward not just to an even more unconstrained Margaret Robertson but to this being one step towards better and freer communication for everyone.

As a man who is horrified by how women are treated on their workplace and online, I tip my hat off to you Margaret. I am convinced that this is exactly the kind of attitude that can help. Don’t lose that fire in you

Here’s the thing I simply don’t get about “internet hate speech”: You must be a fairly timorous beastie if anonymous comments upset you.

I can understand that someone fresh to the internet might get a little surprised when they receive death threats for suggesting that a certain series of games is getting a bit long in the tooth or that chain mail bikinis are in poor taste.

What I can’t understand is how some seasoned internet pro, maybe even with the internet as workplace and area of expertise, can take offence. These people are not coming after you, their opinion counts for nothing, and I can’t say I’m astonished to find that a remarkable proportion of people are not only criminally stupid, but mean-spirited and egotistical too. I don’t understand why anyone would be.

You don’t have to be a devout student of history to figure that one out. You don’t have to be much more astute to notice that, throughout history, dogged persistence in the face of opposition has tended to yield progress.

Is the average blogger, aspiring writer or cultural critic really so narcissistic as to take badly spelled bile devoid of content personally?

That said, of course, I’m an intensely privileged white man who works in the games industry and as such my perspective is pretty much worthless. I acknowledge that. I’ve written a dissertation on the state of women in games, and I’m still a little surprised that nothing has changed in the three years that passed since I wrote it, despite the rise of social games (although it makes a slight amount of sales, considering social games are mostly vastly cynical; designed, developed and managed by number-crunchers, a fairly androcentric discipline at the best of times).

However, I find myself equally surprised that so many women allow themselves to take adolescent insults from the intellectually challenged seriously. To feel so assaulted by random strangers that they prefer to shut up. What would they do if they were truly oppressed? Certainly not offer resistance, it would appear.

Oh how I yearn to express an opinion online

This is nothing more then trolling. Women unfortunately become a target because a troll wants a dramatic response, and the sexism card is one of the easiest to recognize and deploy. (It’s hard to tell someone’s religion, but sex… well most of the time it’s easy to figure out)

AND sexism is a real issue today, sure fire way to get most people worked up. The best thing you can do is just censor the troll. Responding in anyway is just feeding em, and giving them exactly what they want.

I’m not saying it’s right, or even okay, the reality is the troll will only grasp the effect of their actions when they run into it in real life. If I upset you online, I’m only getting a sliver of the effect, just written words, maybe a voice, that’s it…

If I offend you in person I see the tears, the body language, the voice, etc. It has a profoundly larger effect and far more likely to make the troll feel guilty… That being said there’s little you can do in this realm accomplish this. It’s the classic lesson, you know fire will burn you, but you don’t truely learn that lesson until you get burned.

For the trolls you know you’re hurting someone, but you don’t truely know what it’s like until you deal with it first hand.

Oh and don’t troll trolls, it’s hard to offend someone who’s ready to offend.

However, I find myself equally surprised that so many women allow themselves to take adolescent insults from the intellectually challenged seriously. To feel so assaulted by random strangers that they prefer to shut up.

Nope. Wrong. Bullshit. Shut the fuc* up. When someone characterizes a form of abuse, you don’t blame the target of the abuse for not being tougher. You missed the point, or the point missed you.

Oh, I understand. I’m not “blaming the victim”, I’m questioning whether being accosted by hormonal teenagers in a comments thread really constitutes victimhood.

If we were talking about genuine psychological abuse, physical molestation or systemic harassment, I utterly and completely agree that there is no excuse for laying blame on the victim.

However, I think random abuse on the internet is a far cry from any of those. Or am I throwing the baby out with the bathwater here?

The whole situation would be a lot easier if society as a whole fully embraced the idea that gender and race has zero relevance in relation to, well, anything. Biological differences aside we’re all just organisms kicking around on a ball of rock.

I don’t think any right thinking, forward thinking person working in and around the games industry is happy with how gender is so much of a factor in most things, mostly in a negative way – even if they wouldn’t go as far as the above paragraph. However, I do believe it is a lot better than it used to be.

Erland – Margaret here. Thanks for commenting.

I understand your point – indeed, I’ve probably volunteered it at times in the past. I think there are things about your comments that are demonstrably right (dogged persistance does certainly pay off, and a huge number of women are engaged in such right now). But I think others are more debatable. I think it isn’t a question of adolescent insults. The article that Mark links to details a number of cases of detailed, terrifying degrading rape threats including home addresses. For all that I agree these are written with the intent to scare rather than actually enact, I’ve not encountered anyone who’s received things like that – male or female – that’s been able to shrug them off with the ease you suggest. I’ve also not encountered anyone who’s been the partner or spouse of anyone on the receiving end of them who’s found them easy to shrug off. And while it may be that some people can, how did it come to a point where our disapproval is aimed at the person who *is* intimidated by such nastiness, rather than the person who perpetrates it?

And here’s the other thing: I have been on the internet for a pretty long while. Usually in environments where my gender wasn’t declared and I was therefore assumed to be male. I’ve been called a lot of names and been the butt of a lot of jokes. Getting the kind of grief I’ve had on the internet when the internet thought I was male didn’t trouble me a bit.

The kind of grief that I might get now that it thinks of me as a woman? Not just absent-mindedly notices that the name on a byline of a boyish article is female, but actually reads something which explicitly acknowledges my gender? I’m genuinely anxious. It’s about to be cross-posted on Kotaku, so I guess we’re all about to find out.

Erlend: Sir, as someone who knows you, you’re incredibly, awesomely insensitive and can come across as a borderline sociopath in your interactions. And actually I like you!

I’m entirely unsurprised you can’t see the problem here. This is absolutely your problem. Not everyone is like you. Not even a tiny fraction of people are like you.

And it’s worth noting I’m only being this blunt because I know you’ll shrug it off entirely, *because you’re you*.

Thanks for your response, Margaret. I understand that there are dimensions to the issue that I simply cannot appreciate because the odds of me being perceived as an “intruder” into any subculture is nil, and that I will most likely never be threatened with rape or have my personal details floated around as a sort of open invitation to act on the threat.

(Besides, my significantly better half has never received a single threat, despite being active on gaming web forums and doing freelance game journalism for two years. I guess she’s one of the lucky ones, and you’re right — I don’t know how I’d respond to someone actually threatening her.)

I’ll be watching the Kotakugeddon with interest. I’m not optimistic either.

The online games media (and games publishers who host community sites/forums) need to consider whether they should be giving the message that meatheaded behaviour is acceptable.

It seems crazy that most games sites still apply extremely light moderation to comments (mostly targeting spam). It’s surely no longer such a novelty to be allowed to comment on a website that it overrides the goal of fostering an inclusive, intelligent user community. Especially now there are five times as many gamers as when this trend took root.

You can see the difference if you compare the standard of comments on RPS (still fairly blokey, such is the PC legacy it’s lumbered with, but quite strictly moderated) to the YouTube-ish garbage hanging off the bottom of any Destructoid, Eurogamer or VG247 article.

It would be nice if Kotaku followed up their new-found ability to run articles not aimed at dribbling frathouse chimps with more robust comment moderation.

Or maybe a solution would be to use Facebook or G+ for comments, so randoms could just be filtered out altogether.

KG: Appreciated, I realize that I vibrate at a different frequency and I don’t really expect anyone else to.

I sure wish they did, though. Would make life so easy. Or horrible.

Erlend: It’d be like Battle Royale, except without crying and just laughing as everyone gets chainsawed.

Congratulations on completely missing the point about the Jade Raymond photo. It has absolutely nothing to do with her clothes or her trying to look sexy or whatever. But that doesn’t mesh with the point you are trying to make so of course that is something you would overlook.

The issue with that photo is the fact that Jade is standing several feet in front of her team while everyone else just kind of stands there. The focus of this photo is very clearly Jade, Jade and more Jade. The rest are there just to fill in the background.

Now, I’m not saying this is her fault. I have no doubt in my mind that this was the photographer’s idea. But why would he have that idea in the first place? Because Jade is an attractive woman and everyone knows that sex sells, period. And contrary to your beliefs, you don’t have to be dressed in a mini skirt and heels to be deemed sexy. So yes, by not speaking up and allowing herself to be put in the spotlight like that she very much allowed herself to be used as a sex symbol.

Alex: You wouldn’t even pass comment if it was a bloke standing there (in completely normal attire). You are passing your own completely speculative assumptions onto the photographer/Raymond.

As for ‘she’s an attractive woman therefore photographs featuring her are sexual imagery/sexualised/she is being a sex symbol.’ : oh dear.

Good stuff. It definitely was something I noticed about you, even (to a lesser extent) in real life. How fucking weird; can’t imagine what that must be like at all. Good luck. I look forward to reading lots of sexy articles.

Hey Rob: do me a favor and find me a similar picture with a male game developer standing several feet in front of his team and is the sole focus of the photo like that. You won’t.

My Icycalm sense is tingling.

Maybe Jade is in the front of the picture as she was Producer on the game?

As for passing on my own speculative assumptions about the photographer or Jade. The photographer I get, sure, but what exactly did I assume about Jade? That she didn’t have any input on the way the photo should look? You’re right I could be totally wrong and she is really a self-centered, conceited bitch.

*sigh*

I kinda figured this would get a response from various intelligent, possibly-well-meaning guys who clearly aren’t raging misogynists but also clearly just don’t quite get it.

So, maybe go read Kieron’s piece on the shock game “Hey Baby”, which relates male privilege to games specifically:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/06/03/the-proposition-so-hey-baby-then

There’s also this excellent AskMeFi thread:

http://ask.metafilter.com/181688/Tell-me-what-you-wish-men-understood-about-being-a-woman

Seriously guys, before you ask “What’s the problem?” or say something like “I don’t see what the big deal is”, just try as best you can to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes.

Robin: It’s not the fact she is in front, but that she is standing several feet in front of everyone else. If it’s not to put all of the focus on her, then why?

Also, 2 men named David Guida and Vincent Pontbriand-Trudel were also producers. How come they aren’t right up front with her?

Thus spoke Assholethustra.

Nobody’s rising to the bait, Alex.

Lol, of course not. That’s how these debates always go down. So I guess I’ll just join in with the rest of you then…

RAH RAH ALL MEN ARE EVIL SEXIST PIGS AND ALL WOMEN ARE COMPLETELY INNOCENT VICTIMS WITH NO SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES WHATSOEVER!

Your point is that we should admit it is not inconceivable that Ubisoft exploited Jade Raymond as a sex object in order to attract attention to Assassin’s Creed.

While that certainly is a possibility, it only demonstrates Ubisoft’s cynicism and potentially Jade’s willingness to play along with it (for whatever reason, which we can’t know). It does not actually change the problematique, as that incident was embedded in it.

Satisfied?

Exhibit B: http://www.virtuosgames.com/what-we-do/software-engineering/

As anyone can clearly tell by the mise en scène here, the photographer is obviously playing up the sexual qualities of the programmer in front. Find me another picture with a programmer seated in front, surrounded by smiling onlookers leaning in to him.

I’m not accusing him of being complicit, but clearly he’s being used as a sex object here. My internet message board agrees with me.

Not really.

Margaret ignored the point being made and tried to twist his argument around into being about how Jade was dressed. It was a completely valid point and she just writes it off and willingly overlooks what was really being said all because it suggests that maybe men aren’t the sole reason stuff like this happens. Every other week there is a new “Sexism In Games” article that pops up that does exactly the same thing.

People are arguing with me as if I said this article was bullshit and none of these problems exist which could not be further from the truth. They do but it’s just not so one sided as it’s always made out to be.

Fact is Jade’s willingness to play along, even if we have no real way of knowing why, is a major part of the problem and only helps fuel the thought that when women benefit from sexism it is good but when they don’t it’s bad. It’s the ultimate double standard in our society. If you want to have a true debate that could really change the way our world works then sometimes you have to look in a mirror instead of just pointing all the blame else where.

If you google ‘Tim Schafer’, ‘Will Wright’ or ‘Peter Molyneux’ most the images don’t even show any of the development team. Is that better or worse?

Does it denigrate the development team by not being worthy of appearing with the producer/figure head? Or is it saying that Jade is not strong enough to carry the project alone?

That said did find this heart warming pic:

http://www.doublefine.com/about/

They look so cheery!

Before this comments thread gets utterly derailed, very much liked your article, and it is going to be interesting to see how your future writing is received. Good luck with that.

Lol see? It’s impossible to have any kind of conversation about this because of fucking morons like Ben here.

Here is a random GIS group photo:
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~aphyariv/pics/group2010.jpg

There is a cute girl right front and center, but notice how is standing WITH THE GROUP as opposed to several feet in front of them. If you are denying that Jade is the focus of that picture then you are lying to yourselves.

Badgercommander: “If you google ‘Tim Schafer’, ‘Will Wright’ or ‘Peter Molyneux’ most the images don’t even show any of the development team. Is that better or worse?

Does it denigrate the development team by not being worthy of appearing with the producer/figure head? Or is it saying that Jade is not strong enough to carry the project alone?”

Googling ‘Jade Raymond’ by itself shows tons of photos of just her alone without the dev team too. You have to search ‘Jade Raymond and team’ to get the photo above.

And you realize your picture proves my point right? Tim Schafer is the founder, owner, and lead designer at Double Fine. It is a photo of HIS company. Yet there he is, mixed into crowd with everyone else. The exact opposite of the Jade Raymond photo.

Also just a side note but Jade Raymond, based purely on career and impact on gaming as a whole, is a scrub compared to Tim Schafer, Will Wright, and Peter Molyneux. So there are probably quite a few more photos of them.

The same Jade Raymond who is significantly younger than the aforementioned developers, has spent much less time in the industry, but has shipped multiple times as an engineer, been the producer on two massive games and now runs the new Ubisoft Toronto studio? Yes, a “scrub” indeed. Ship a single game and get back to me on how much of a “scrub” any developer is, let alone one that contributed to the success of a modern original IP.

This was a great article! I am definitely outside-looking-in on the gaming world, but I follow a lot of the feminism in the gaming industry ‘debates’ with a weird mix of morbid curiosity and relief that I’m not subjected to the same thing in my (male-dominated) field.

Normally I don’t comment, but I have to recommend to you the book “How to be a Woman” by Caitlin Moran. It’s a hilarious yet serious take on modern feminism and the thesis (like yours) is that women should do things, and be unabashedly awesome at the things they (we) do.

So thanks for your unabashed awesomeness!

Fucking rock on– this article sent me on a rabbit-hole of articles and video and other related awareness– and I have to say, “Stand-tall, stand-firm, and don’t take any bullshit!”
If we could get one more female badass a day the world would start to head toward a better place.

Be proud, be happy– lead by example! I’m doing the best I can on my end–

I appreciate you being honest about how you used to think.

I think the thing that deeply troubles me is a certain mindset that I am unable to tell if you’ve fully shaken off yet or not. The mindset that anyone who gets attacked online somehow must’ve done something to deserve it. It comes across that way even when you’re talking about not censoring yourself and thus being prepared to be attacked – as if this act of not censoring is a deserving reason to be attacked.

I assume you wouldn’t point at a rape victim and say they must’ve done something to provoke the attack and if they had only censored themselves more, it wouldn’t have happened.

EVERYONE on the internet is fat, ugly, slutty or stupid in the eyes of someone – the important thing is to realize that it doesn’t mean you must’ve done something to provoke it. This does actually happen to men, too – talk to any well known tech blogger – they’ve all received very scary death threats. Censor yourself and be professional as much or as little as you want – censorship isn’t a sci-fi attack deflector shield. The act of putting ANY form of yourself online means someone may choose to attack you. The important thing to remember is that like any other attack victim – the attack is not a reflection of you or any of your choices good or bad.

I really hope you’re on the same page with me about this – as I said, it’s hard to tell if you’ve yet come to this understanding. I read this blog post hours ago and it bothered me so much that I just needed to write this out to you.

Hey nice reading comprehension there, James! I said she is a scrub compared to those 3 devs, not myself. I’m not a game developer nor do I aspire to be one so those types of insults don’t really have any kind of effect on me. Nice try though. Let me just go ahead and break it down anyway:

Jade Raymond:

Jeopardy!, programmer
Trivial Pursuit, programmer
The Sims Online, producer
There, producer/art
Assassin’s Creed, producer
Assassin’s Creed II, executive producer
Tom Clancy’s Splinter Cell: Retribution, producer

Tim Schafer:

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade: The Action Game, tester
Maniac Mansion (NES port), tools programmer, SCUMM
The Secret of Monkey Island, co-writer, programmer, additional designer
Monkey Island 2: LeChuck’s Revenge, co-writer, programmer, additional designer
Maniac Mansion: Day of the Tentacle, co-designer, co-producer, co-director, co-writer
Full Throttle, project leader, writer, designer
Grim Fandango, project leader, writer, designer
Psychonauts, creative director, co-writer, designer
Brütal Legend, creative director, writer, designer
Costume Quest, creative director, writer
Stacking
Trenched
Sesame Street: Once Upon a Monster

Peter Molyneux:

The Entrepreneur, designer/programmer
Druid 2
Fusion, designer/programmer
Populous, designer/programmer
Powermonger, designer/programmer
Populous II: Trials of the Olympian Gods, designer/programmer
Syndicate, producer
Theme Park, project leader/lead programmer
Magic Carpet, executive producer
Hi-Octane, executive producer
Genewars
Dungeon Keeper, project leader/designer
Black & White, concept/lead designer/programmer
Fable, designer
Fable: The Lost Chapters, designer
The Movies, executive designer
Black & White 2, lead designer
The Movies: Stunts & Effects, executive designer
Black & White 2: Battle of the Gods, lead designer
Fable II, lead designer
Fable III, lead designer
Milo and Kate (formerly known as The Dmitri Project) (cancelled) (lead designer)
Fable: The Journey

Will Wright:

Raid on Bungeling Bay, designer/programmer
SimCity, designer/programmer
SimCity 2000, designer/programmer
SimCity 3000, designer/programmer
SimFarm, designer/programmer
SimEarth, designer/programmer
SimLife, designer/programmer
SimCopter, designer/programmer
SimAnt, designer/programmer
The Sims, designer/programmer
The Sims 2, designer/programmer
Spore, designer/programmer

Shit bro, you’re right. She was an “engineer” on multiple games: Jeopardy and Trivial Pursuit. Dems skillz!

Great post Margaret. I’m sorry to see people derail the real point of the post.
I would really love to see a lot more conversation about how we can make online communities less hostile to women. I would suggest anyone interested read Skud’s post on Geek Feminism to think more deeply about how women are harassed in the tech sector.
http://geekfeminism.org/2011/10/13/on-being-harassed-a-little-gf-history-and-some-current-events/

Erlend: Just as an example of why women may “let” themselves be intimidated: the big question is wondering if those adolescent trolls will turn out to be terrifying stalkers who email you details on your house, what you were wearing yesterday, and your schedule and habits. I know too many women that this has happend to. I’m one of the incredibly lucky ones: I’ve been online (and gaming online) since 1980 (PLATO and BITNET and eventually the WWW/Internet) and I’ve never been threatened. It doesn’t mean that I’m not wary, because you can’t live as a woman and not be wary.

Apologies for further derailment, but Alex, Raymond studied at McGill, which has a very respectable CompSci program. She might have preferred a producers role, or even been better at it, but that doesn’t exclude her from being a good engineer.

(But please, don’t let that stop you from being selective about your facts.)

Mo: Um, just exactly what facts am I being selective about? I bet you thought that was a really clever response, but seriously, WHAT FACTS? I didn’t list ANY of the developers’ schools. All I listed was the games they have worked on and their roles. And I specifically stated IN TERMS OF CAREER AND IMPACT ON GAMING. Are you people really that dense?

If you are trying to tell me that Jade Raymond has accomplished more in her career when compared to the other 3 developers listed then you are a fucking fool and anyone who knows anything about games will tell you the same.

I am a game developer, and I find Jade Raymond’s accomplishments incredibly impressive.

Alex,

As it happens, I myself was in one of those pictures where the male producer was way out in front and the rest of the team (myself included) was way way in the background. It was in an article about the original Ultima Online team. Of COURSE it happens with male team leaders, all the time. It ticked off the team a lot, too.

That said, I do think that you’re right that there are more factors playing into posing a photo like that than a surface glance would think.

That doesn’t take away from the fact that Jade Raymond (whom I don’t know) was *undeniably* the victim of frothing rabid sexism. That photo was far from the only time she appeared in the press. And the insanity that surrounded said appearances was completely ridiculous.

Alex,

At least we can agree that “fucking morons” get in the way of having a reasonable discussion.

Margaret, thanks for this post.

The treatment of women like Jade Raymond at the hands of both media and net commentators made me want to stay invisible as a woman in games. If a confident, capable woman with a solid career in charge of a well respected IP can be reduced to ‘OMGHawtChickySluuuuut’ then I felt that there was little hope for the rest of us. So I carefully kept my head down and plodded on quietly in order to keep out of the firing line. I was quite happy with my compromise until you came along to challenge my comfortable position. Now I have to seriously reassess.

Curse you and your reasoned arguments, Margaret! *shakes fist*

Margaret, I totally owe you and Mark a beer.

What a wonderful pair of articles!

I understand this as a gay guy working in games, i do self-edit sometimes. Thanks for the article, Margaret.

Also! http://www.margaretrobertsonisfullofshit.com -> you could use this to highlight the trolls. post their comments there, and leave them open as a way for folks to experience the sexism you see first hand. As a guy, its hard for me to see that sometimes, as I am not the target. I think this could be a valuable service.

A tumblr blog of sorts.

Ryan

*sigh* how predictable…

> Shit bro, you’re right. She was an
> “engineer” on multiple games: Jeopardy
> and Trivial Pursuit. Dems skillz!

The last bit. “Dems skillz!” is a terribly snarky way to imply that Raymond has no engineering skills. You obviously knew her educational background, it’s on the Wikipedia, like everything else you posted.

(I can’t wait for your pedantic response regarding my “misinterpretation” of your clearly flame-bait comment.)

Also, I don’t think anyone is arguing that Raymond has accomplished *more* than Schafer or Molyneux (few have), but I/we *are* arguing that she is an accomplished individual, and NOT because she’s a woman, but because she’s intelligent and hardworking.

Mo: Re-read all of my posts again. Because based on the arguments people are making with me none of you have bothered doing that and it’s really annoying arguing with people who keep pretending I said something I didn’t.

I have not once, not one single time, said Jade was not accomplished. I have not said she is unintelligent or not a hard worker. I have not once said anything regarding her success in life being because she is a woman. WHAT I DID SAY, was that compared to the developers Badgercommander mentioned, she is a scrub. That’s all I said. Hardly something to be taken so harshly. Some people may or may not agree with me, but I’m willing to bet that the number of people who do agree with me far outnumbers the people who don’t.

Now go back and re-read James’ post. He WAS very clearly arguing that she is more accomplished than the other developers. Yes my reply was snarky and sarcastic because James was implying Jade releasing “multiple games as an engineer” was somehow incredibly more impressive compared to the others. I said “Dem skillz” after I posted the list of each dev’s games. It was not meant to imply she has no skills whatsoever; but was a sarcastic way of saying compared to the others mentioned she has far fewer skills.

What do you think was just a tad bit harder to make, Jeopardy or SimCity? Trivial Pursuit or Black and White? Again we may agree or disagree, but go ask anyone with an inkling of an idea what goes into making these games and I’m sure the answers are overwhelmingly in favor of the games not programmed by Jade Raymond.

I may be completely wrong and Jade is some kind of programming virtuoso. All we have to go by is the evidence presented to us via their game credits.

Oh and before people put more words in my mouth, I’m not saying she has fewer skills than them because she is a woman. So don’t even bother going there.

Raph: Thank you for giving some perspective. I never meant to imply it *never* happens with male producers/designers/etc because it most certainly does. But as you said when Assassin’s Creed was coming out Jade was the victim of rabid sexism among the gaming community. Her face was plastered all over the place on gaming sites and magazines and to try and pretend it has nothing to do with her being an attractive woman is just willful ignorance.

I do engineering work. Every engineer I know who happens to be female is (at least at work) an engineer first and foremost. Incidentally, every female engineer whose work I know does above-average work.
What point about being a woman could any of them possibly make that could or should raise my opinion of them? Should I somehow be judging them on a different scale?
Bringing that back to the topic at hand, do you believe Jade is portrayed in that picture primarily as a woman or as an engineer? If as an engineer, why was she chosen as the focus of that picture over all the more talented people (because there’s no need to ask why she was chosen over less talented people). If as a woman, why on earth are you okay with trivializing her actual talent?

I can’t remember how I got to this post, I think facebook. I went an hour long journey via you’re links.

I’m so pleased that people write about this more and more. Thanks.

Aargh, sorry I was just trying to be a little faecitious, had no intention of igniting more sarcastic comments. I have no desire to argue with people over the internet, engage in a little debate from time to time, certainly but otherwise the whole thing is pointless.

Alex, man, I have no idea what you are fighting for anymore. You have zeroed in on one tiny detail of the article rather than taking it as a whole and your responses have been worded in a way that seems to be trying to negate the validity of the article. I was just playing along for the sake of diffusing the conversation as you are clearly on your set path and nothing is going to dissuade you.

Is all good but seriously the anger makes no sense and if you are really trying to debunk the points made in the article you might want to go about it a different way as all you are creating is an us against you scenario.

Alex,

I’ve read over all your posts. I can somewhat agree with you on this point, but disagree with your overall argument.

As long as we can agree that Raymond is an accomplished, intelligent, hardworking individual, I’m satisfied. To say she’s more accomplished than Schafer or Molyneux is, of course, silly. Honestly, I think James just mis-read your post. I think he read “scrub” and missed the “compared to” bit. And you over-reacted, just a little bit.

But now that I’ve read all your posts, let’s get back to your main point. Let me ask you this: what was Raymond suppose to do?

Her job was a producer on the biggest new IP for Ubisoft. A big part of her job entails doing PR for the game. Being in the spotlight, talking up the game, doing interviews, etc is her job. Was she suppose to decline interviews, decline demos, and so on? Should she have dressed differently, or changed the way she looked somehow to attract less attention?

Maybe she should have passed the PR duties to the other producer, right? But why? She’s clearly great at PR, and not just because she’s a woman. I watched her demo AC1 at the Sony (or Microsoft?) E3 keynote*. She narrated the demo clearly, knowledgeably and with great enthusiasm. I’ve watched a lot of E3 keynotes, these are not skills that most producers are great at.

(* sorry for the vagueness, but it was many years ago!)

So Option 1 is basically Raymond should have self-censored herself to attract less attention … which is *exactly* what this post is about *not* doing.

And hey, because you’re so fixated on this point, let’s go over “that photo”. You made a big assumption based on it (“she very much allowed herself to be used as a sex symbol”), with very little information to go on. As you said, it’s likely “this was the photographer’s idea”. If the photographer was doing a team shoot, took a dozen or so photos, then goes, “hey could we get one with Jade up in front please?” Without thinking, she takes a few steps up, poses, and a photo is snapped. When it comes to press, *that’s* the photo they choose to run with.

I’m not saying that’s what happened, but it’s a reasonable assumption to make, right? And seeing as I can’t find any other similar photos, isn’t it a little harsh to say “she very much allowed herself to be used as a sex symbol” or maybe that “she is really a self-centered, conceited bitch” based on one photo?

So anyway, back to the main point: Option 2 is much simpler. What if the online gaming audience just … you know, grew up? I agree that the Raymond/AC1 coverage was totally ridiculous. But gaming websites covered it so heavily because it got a rise out of their audience. As long as the audience is this immature, and gaming websites all but encourage this kind of behaviour, this vicious cycle will keep going, and the industry will never grow up.

So which one seems more reasonable to you?

This “Alex” character is such a clear attempt by feminists to discredit their own detractors by painting their arguments as ridiculous conspiracy theories regarding Ubisoft’s attempts to use Jade Raymond as a sex symbol by allowing her to appear in a picture wearing normal clothes somewhat in front of the rest of her team.

Their one mistake is that this entire line of reasoning is so insane it could never be honestly espoused by any remotely reasonable human being.

Nice try, feminists! Maybe next time you should be more believable with your tricks.

Honestly… There are a lot better things to do with one’s time than continuing to perpetuate the “women in gaming suck” stereotype with ramblings like these. Do your job, do it properly, and sex shouldn’t even be part of the picture. Troll baiting will only bring more trolls. Fact is, sex sells. Women and men both are used as sex symbols, and I see nothing wrong with it, considering sex is an inherent part of human nature.

Such an honest post Margaret. I’m shocked (even from the comments above) that anyone should think this kind of bullying is okay or something women should put up with. Its abnormal and of course it affects how we behave/write/reflect. And it mustn’t continue to do so. Great post.

@alex I think it’s a common trope to use the lead designer as the focal point. I picked a random “auteur” male designer and googled on name + studio. This was one of the first results:
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/warrenInline.jpg

If you can’t stand in front of the team dressed casually if you’re a woman, because that’s still selling out using your sex appeal, aren’t women relegated to a life in the crowd (while penis havers get to play the hero/leader/genius role), and isn’t that a problem?

Yeah, the term “scrub” is what set me off. As a developer every time I read crap like that or “lazy developers” I have to fight the urge to go off on the commenter. This time I gave in as the issues highlighted by Margaret and Mark’s posts had me more than a little tetchy to begin with.

Very good post, Margaret.

I ran an online project once ‘as a man’ because I honestly believed that I (and therefore the project)would be taken more seriously.

I’ve come a long way since then, but still a ways to go. Good for you.

I have (mostly) refused to deny my femininity at work, with the result that in my 30 years in the professional world I have been accused of trading sex to get ahead by folks who don’t know me well enouh to realize that I have ample brains and talent with which to derive success. It has been interesting, but I have survived by being consistently feminine and consistently good and consistently ethical. I also derive enjoyment from the facial expressions of those who’ve mistaken me for fluff and then witnessed me briefing leadership. Both Ranarama’s article and her friends’ are excellent and make me hopeful for the world my son and daughter are growing up in. Thanks!

Margaret, I *love* this post! As a transsexual woman in the high-tech industry (specifically information security) I face very similar issues. On one hand, I am afraid of not being feminine enough, and on the other hand, I am very afraid of being seen as an attention-whore or worse yet, just some sort of hyper-sexual cross-dressing fetishist, which is a stereotype that plagues us in a very big way. I have recently been on a journey of re-assessing my public image, and this is some pretty serious food for thought. Thank you.

Great article first off as I agree that as a writer, if you can’t be authentic in voice and in personality, you’re cheating yourself and your readers.

If I may offer my recommendation on your recently bought URL, perhaps have it sell customized Doggie Bags with your name printed on them? Beat them at their own game.

As someone who is IN that picture with Jade Raymond, allow me to say that she’s a fantastic producer and she earned everything she got, and people who think she was ‘exploited as a sex object’ need to stuff their own stupid faces down their own stupid mouths.

Thank you and that is all.

“Robin: It’s not the fact she is in front, but that she is standing several feet in front of everyone else. If it’s not to put all of the focus on her, then why?

Also, 2 men named David Guida and Vincent Pontbriand-Trudel were also producers. How come they aren’t right up front with her?”

I was part of the core team on AC, I have no idea who David Guida is. So that’s why he’s not in the picture. Maybe he was part of the PC port? This picture was taken long before the PC port even started.

Vincent Pontbriand was associate producer on AC. IIRC, he wasn’t even there that day.

You know who is in that picture? Patrice Desilets. Creative director. You know why he’s just buried with everyone else? Because it wasn’t a big deal to any of us. She was good at her job, she was doing a lot of the PR, why not?

Patrice is actually standing behind a junior designer who ended up leaving the project. Sometimes a picture is just a picture. The only reason this discussion is happening is because of the industry sexism that this original blog post is about.

What I’m doing research on now is the phenomenon of men hating on women after age 25. I find it strange that most males grow up with females as leaders in homes, schools and workplaces, yet when a certain age is met it’s as if women no longer retain their credentials.

I’d tried playing by the rules when I started a new game industry job a couple of years back. You’ll understand this when I say that I wanted to be respected as a professional, and I was afraid that my propensity to joke around with “the boys” at my previous game job diminished the respect they had toward me. So with some resolve, I vowed to “play by the rules” when I started my new job. Let’s just say it wasn’t even a month in before flagrantly inappropriate behavior started happening.

Regardless of how I dress, what I (don’t) say, or what I (don’t) do, there will always be men who don’t treat me with the respect they should. The good news is there are men who do! Indeed, there was one programmer who was a tremendous support to me throughout the sexual harassment I was experiencing. It’s good to know there are guys like that.

I’ve left that job due to a multitude of reasons, and now that I find myself gearing up to start a new job, I ask myself repeatedly how I should conduct myself on a day to day basis. I definitely want to be myself – and for me, that means I still want to joke around with the boys sometimes. That might leave the playing field open for the occasional dodo to cross the line, but I guess all I can do is make that line well and fully known and deal with anyone crossing it swiftly and decisively. I guess it remains to be seen whether I can have it both ways, but it’s worth a shot. Wish me luck.

Interesting read. It’s hard for any writer to look at the subject of abuse and not come across like a psuedo-victim with a bruised ego. You haven’t and in the process brought a good pint about games journalism in particular. I think the problem stems from the mindset of most gamers and that of gaming media. Gamers, on the whole, are a insular bunch. The know what they like and shun whatever is different and/or new. For them -because some gaming media has feed them nothing but- any females linked to gaming are either dollyed up booth babes or cynically marketed attention whores (Pretty much any presenter on G4, female or otherwise) who get sussed out for their lack of sincerity to the subject matter. It’s been that way -espcially on TV- for over a decade now. So, to gamers, every female is to be treated with suspicion. I’m not excusing it, it’s just how I see it.
For it to stop, requires leaps of faith from gamers and gaming media alike. Then maybe one day, women wont feel the need to dress up as a Chun Li inspired prostitute and gamers will accept a girl gamer as just that: a gamer who is a girl

[...] 16/12/2011 I would encourage you all to read this post by Margaret Robertson, who is both a leading games writer and development director of Hide & [...]

[...] like you all to read ‘In which I don’t try to write like a man’ by Margaret Robertson. Margaret is both a leading games writer and development director of Hide [...]

[...] think my resolution for 2012, thanks to the brilliant and courageous Margaret Robertson, is to blog about games. Specifically, I’m going to write about what I’m playing, in [...]

[...] language and even stronger sentiment in this post by Margaret Robertson, on what she did to avoid sexism in the [...]

If somebody attacks somebody by calling them a fag, I don’t think the right response is to say that they’re not a fag. The right response, regardless of the sexual orientation of the person being attacked, is to argue that there’s nothing wrong with being gay.

Likewise, if somebody attacks somebody by calling them a slut, I don’t think the right response is, “She’s not actually a slut,” even if she isn’t.

Really venomous attacks work by dragging us toward inappropriate compromises.

I pose a question:

-All people should “speak out” and “act out” against sexism.
-A woman is being singled-out because of sexism.
-The woman is “lucky” enough to receive some sort of benefit because of being singled out.

Now obviously, we should all speak out against the mistreatment of others, but what if they are actually benefiting from sexism? Notoriety. Career advancement. All the things she wanted from her career. Are we still obligated to “right the wrong”?

Does the woman who benefits from sexism have the moral obligation to reject any and all benefits she may receive from sexist exploitation?

My biggest problem with these “sexism in gaming” arguments is that they have absolutely nothing to do with gaming, and everything to do with society at large.

Sure, it’s good to raise awareness, but I can guarantee that the sexism that women have to deal with in games has nothing to do with forum moderation, or hiring practices, and everything to do with the white male who “owns” your mortgage, the white male who “owns” the company that manufactured your car, and the white male that passes all the laws in your state.

It a bad situation, but it’s not nearly as simple as presented in these two articles. Even if all the women in gaming stopped self-censoring and demanded to be treated fairly, they’d still make less than their male counterparts.

I guess my point is: If you’re REALLY going to fight to right the ways that women are mistreated, targeting the man-children in the games industry, the media, and Xbox Live is laughably low on the scale of effectiveness.

Stopped reading when she started talking about skirts. For God’s sake, maybe if you idiotic women stopped thinking about fashion, makeup, bunnies and GRRRRL POWAH, the games you work on wouldn’t stink so much.

[...] fair representation in an articulate manner. It’s rare now for a week to pass by without one or two articles from industry voices, both male and female, contemplating, demanding, or lobbying for [...]

There is a lot of “sexism” on the internet that is said just to be offensive. A lot of the offenders may be moronic adolescents, but they know how to push peoples’ buttons. It sounds like sexist rantings, but it’s actually completely personal. They’re picking and choosing words to cause maximum offense–they’re not making a political statement.

Most online sexism, racism, homophobia, or whatever else, is just trash talk. The problem is not so much that people are sexist, but that they are trying to provoke offense and cause strife. First and foremost, they want to piss you off. If nobody was offended by sexism, then I think the sexist language would disappear almost immediately. Instead, they would choose other slurs and taboos and carry on insulting people just the same.

Of course, this isn’t the whole problem, but not enough of these articles acknowledge that most of the supposed “sexism” is just trash talk. So many articles complaining about sexism just add fuel to the fire, since by making sexism more taboo, it just increases the offensiveness of being sexist–and being offensive is one of the few things adolescent boys strive to be good at.

I am not saying you shouldn’t write or complain about it, I am just saying that it won’t fix anything. The root problem, in most cases, is not sexism, but general bad behaviour by loathsome little men.

There is a lot of mansplaining going on in the comments here. Tut.

A very thoughtful post, Margaret, thanks for sharing it. Good luck with the new direction!

[...] stirred a response by Margaret Robertson, who meditates on her possess past bent toward self-censorship, lest she face misogynistic ostracization: “These things emanate all about how we comport myself online, and indeed in a industry. we [...]

[...] the last few weeks, initially sparked by Mark Sorrel’s piece, followed up on by our chum Margaret and then most recently given another (to be confirmed) high-level working-example here. [...]

[...] over the last few weeks, initially sparked by Mark Sorrel’s piece, followed up on by our chum Margaret and then most recently given another (to be confirmed) high-level working-example here. We’re [...]

You know that thing where you have to speak in public but are terrified so you muster all the bravery you can… and because you are so tense you actually blurt out something so entirely stupid and the opposite of what you really wanted to say, in the process making a complete fool of yourself?

That keeps happening to me on the internet.

I went underground back in the usenet days when I quickly realised that exposing your female name was a stupid idea. Never mind actually expressing an opinion, that was a good way of attracting lots of irrational hatred.

I still use pseudonyms and guard my real name although I am easing up on that a little bit. I have never allowed a photo of myself online.

I still get that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach when clicking the post/tweet/submit button.

I try hard not to broach the subject of women online because when I do I get so angry I scare myself.

I know a lot of women my age who simply won’t start social networking accounts at all, even eschew the internet for anything other than email with their kids. The most pure type of self-censorship. I often think they are the smartest and happiest people in the universe.

[...] Robertson, director of development studio HideSeek, wrote an article last year about self-censoring, and her way of dealing with game industry sexism by avoiding marking herself [...]

I am not sure where you are getting your information, but great topic.
I needs to spend some time learning much more or understanding more.
Thanks for excellent information I was looking for this info for my mission.

Hello all, here every one is sharing these kinds of familiarity, therefore
it’s pleasant to read this website, and I used to go to see this blog daily.

In more recent times water pipes Tea for has been
used with a tea made from its leaves can be made into a tea, but start with a” U”.
William Dotani Dec 14, 2010, 8:02am EST Also, my series is not to identify the real identity of Socialwriters of course!
Nancy Paoletti Dec 14, 2010, 8:50am EST Good morning.

Whats up very cool web site!! Guy .. Excellent .. Wonderful .
. I’ll bookmark your blog and take the feeds also? I am glad to seek out numerous helpful information right here within the publish, we want develop extra strategies in this regard, thank you for sharing. . . . . .

WOW just what I was looking for. Came here by searching for numbness in face

If any one wants to be a successful blogger, after that he/she must read this paragraph, as it contains al} strategies related to that.

TrackBack

Leave a comment
Your email address will never be displayed. Basic HTML allowed.